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Author Topic: Nvidia npdate path for early adopters with ATI video  (Read 11498 times)
bedge
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« on: February 12, 2010, 11:03:20 am »

I haven't heard anything on this for a long time. The ATI chipset is clearly the weak part of this product. I feel that as an early adopter, I placed my faith in Neuros to make it work, and now you have realized the error, switched hardware and left all the beta users in the cold.
After a year of trying, even after upgrading the CPU and RAM, I cannot get blue ray video to play without massive tearing.

What about something like this:
http://www.buy.com/prod/msi-radeon-hd-4550-graphics-card-pci-express-2-0-x16-1-gb-ddr3-sdram/q/loc/101/212418680.html?adid=17992

Would this work with the link mobo?

Or, is there going to be a nominal cost  mobo exchange program?

-Bruce
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ChadV
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 05:27:58 pm »

The primary issue with the ATi chipset is that it is an ATi chipset.  The Linux drivers do not perform as ATi had promised, and that is what is causing most of the non-flash performance issues.  (Flash is much better, but not perfect, on nVidia.)  So while yes, that video card would work well with the LINK board, it would not improve your performance much since it uses the same driver base.

However, the ATi should be able to handle Blu-Ray playback...  What drive are you using, and what playback software?  It appears that there's only one or two programs available (PowerDVD has the most chatter) for Linux that handle Blu-Ray without questionable legality.
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fightingfortofu
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 12:56:32 am »

id like to see an upgrade path for early adopters with ati as well.
i was hesitant at first about getting a link solely because of prior experiances with ati and linux but neuros were saying they were working with ati to make better drivers. now that theyve switched over to nvida i feel duped.
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ChadV
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 09:28:28 am »

Well, you will feel what you're going to feel, but Neuros did try to work with ATi for a while, and while I don't know details of what went on, it's obvious that promises were not delivered upon to a lot of people.  The switch to nVidia is causing issues with the next "firmware" (to make sure it will support both boards as well as possible) and all sorts of other things.  The biggest problem is finding people willing to be active in a proactive way with things like bug squashing.
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bedge
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 01:31:28 pm »

How many ATI boards were sold?  Would it not be simpler to upgrade everyone to nvidia hardware? Whether it's the new MOBO or an nvidia card, this would allow Neuros to be rid of ATI forever and focus on one firmware release and not have the ATI hardware owners forever being the ugly step-children that no one wants to deal with.
Ask your engineers whether they would prefer to focus on only one version. I'd put $$$ on that being a unanimous yes.

I'm sure Neuros could negotiate a pretty killer price for a bunch  of nvidia cards. I'd go buy my own, except that I want to make sure it remains supported by Neuros, this is why Neuros needs to make the call on what the official card is.

This "do nothing and wait" is the worst possible action as it frustrates users, the ones who took the gamble and bought in early with the promise that Neuros would "make it work". Inaction will kill the motivation of all early adopter hackers. They will chalk this up as a bad experience and move on.

Make the call. Name a card/MOBO, set a price for the upgrade path, and drop ATI support. You will save $$$ in the long run for not having to backport every fix to the ATI version, and cut down your testing permutations by a factor of 2. I write software, I know what the multiple QA and support will cost you.
At the same time you eliminate all bad feelings of abandonment and make all the folk who bought in early happy. There is no-one who would begrudge a $30 upgrade path.

What's the down side?

-Bruce
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bedge
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 01:45:56 pm »

The primary issue with the ATi chipset is that it is an ATi chipset.  The Linux drivers do not perform as ATi had promised, and that is what is causing most of the non-flash performance issues.  (Flash is much better, but not perfect, on nVidia.)  So while yes, that video card would work well with the LINK board, it would not improve your performance much since it uses the same driver base.

However, the ATi should be able to handle Blu-Ray playback...  What drive are you using, and what playback software?  It appears that there's only one or two programs available (PowerDVD has the most chatter) for Linux that handle Blu-Ray without questionable legality.

Tested with both the current link software release, but I've also tried ubuntu 9.10 with:
0 10:13:02 tv@tv  ~
0 %> dpkg -l |grep fgl
ii  fglrx-amdcccle                        2:8.660-0ubuntu4                                       Catalyst Control Center for the ATI graphics accelerator
ii  fglrx-kernel-source                   2:8.660-0ubuntu4                                       Kernel module source for the ATI graphics accelerators
ii  fglrx-modaliases                      2:8.660-0ubuntu4                                       Identifiers supported by the ATI graphics driver
ii  xorg-driver-fglrx                     2:8.660-0ubuntu4                                       Video driver for the ATI graphics accelerators
0 10:13:07 tv@tv  ~

same result.

As for the source, any mkv encoded blue-ray video. File props attached to this post.
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ChadV
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 07:25:28 pm »

I don't have any 720p H.264 files to test with so maybe someone else can help you from here.
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cyrus
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 10:35:41 pm »

I don't have any 720p H.264 files to test with so maybe someone else can help you from here.

I was one of the lucky ones who was given an Nvidia board to test with. The Nvidia works great for everything but flash based stuff (ATI didn't handle that well either). However, for downloaded content (which most of mine is) the Nvidia vastly outperformed the ATI due to VDPAU support.
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bedge
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 12:15:04 am »

I don't have any 720p H.264 files to test with so maybe someone else can help you from here.

I was one of the lucky ones who was given an Nvidia board to test with. The Nvidia works great for everything but flash based stuff (ATI didn't handle that well either). However, for downloaded content (which most of mine is) the Nvidia vastly outperformed the ATI due to VDPAU support.

This is exactly what I'm after. whatever nvidia based card that Neuros is going to stand behind that also supports the vdpau driver. Presumably one that doesn't have a noisy fan. Where do I sign up for one ?

-Bruce
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bedge
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2010, 10:18:59 am »

ping

What's the model of the Nvidia card that neurostech recommends? I'll upgrade my own damn hardware.
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ChadV
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 09:39:59 pm »

The board used in the nVidia LINK is the Asus M3N78-VM.  It appears that the GeForce 8200 on that board is not available as a discrete card.
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bedge
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 12:47:54 am »

The board used in the nVidia LINK is the Asus M3N78-VM.  It appears that the GeForce 8200 on that board is not available as a discrete card.

So what's the upgrade/trade in price for one of these?

-Bruce
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ChadV
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 09:24:08 am »

As I said before, the trade-in program is being worked on, it looks to be variable, depending on whether you send the LINK back to have them do it, or have them send you the board and send back the old one after trading it out.  However, final pricing and details have not yet been set.  I'll ping someone up the chain, but I don't forsee the program opening until stock of new units is steady.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 09:30:24 am by ChadV » Logged
bedge
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 10:22:44 am »

I didn't see any mention of an actual trade-in program in this thread. Must have been elsewhere.

<rant on>
The big issue is that there is no visible progress, no commitment from Neurostech, and no mention of upgrade plans or policy. That leaves everyone with an ATI board in HW limbo with no clue as whether they should ebay the questionable HW or keep using something that makes everyone ask "why does it tear like that?" and "it's pretty crappy video quality isn't it".  I'm getting sick of explaining it.

_Any_ announcement, even of something 3 months off would do wonders to stifle the rising bad feelings and that "taken advantage of", "duped", "abandoned" (quoted from other posters) feelings.

You're biggest support base is the open source community. What do you think they're saying about the link now? I'd like to post on slashdot about how Neurostech followed through on their commitment to the early adopters and took care of everyone to took the gamble that they would get it working, instead of what has actually happened.

You've said we can't buy the  card so we're stuck waiting for Neurostech if we want to continue to be supported.  So do something!!

My wife keeps saying that it's a piece of crap the way it stands and is pushing me to bug another #!#%#@ tivo which I don't want to do, but unless I have a clear answer as to when this will get fixed, I will have to.


This wait and do nothing with no information or any clue as to what, if anything, willl happen is so incredibly frustrating.

</rant off>

-Bruce
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ChadV
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2010, 05:36:55 pm »

Pending and 100% subject-to-change overview of trade-up program is here:

http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/The_Gamma_Program#Neuros_LINK_Gamma_Upgrade_Program

Again, though, playing back local SD video through XBMC in 720p I've not had the visual issues you mention on the ATi hardware.  Also, the nVidia image is still fairly beta.  (Functional, but issues with running updates.)
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