October 21, 2017, 01:33:14 am
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Question: What do you think of the 442v2 concept?
it's a washed up has been at this point, abort!
It sounds cool to me.
not sure, I'll see what I feel like when it comes out
it's a washed up has been at this point, abort!
I was never really interested in a PMP to begin with

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Author Topic: What do you think of the 442v2 concept?  (Read 10727 times)
JoeBorn
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« on: September 10, 2006, 12:57:07 pm »

There's been considerable discussion of the 442v2 on the google mailing list: http://groups.google.com/group/Neuros/browse_thread/thread/6facf691f3425068/4b6bbf616ce93f50?lnk=raot#4b6bbf616ce93f50

with some calling the 442v2 "already obsolete" and others maintaining its the greatest thing since sliced bread.  The most recent in the latter category said the below.  Please vote, we'd love to know what you think.

"The 442v2 is one of the most exciting products I've ever seen.  I've
been waiting with unbridled anticipation since I first heard of it,
following the blog and the groups weekly.  Portable AV recording and
playback at DVD quality?  Burr-brown ADC/DACs?  USB Host?  And it runs
Linux!!??  I'm by no means a gadget junkie - I own maybe 10 electronic
devices less than two years old.  And that's because I didn't waste my
money on disposable, locked-down, worthless crap built on a business
model of planned obsolescence.  I waited for the cream to rise to the
top, the hype to die down, and spent my money on well-built,
well-designed products.  And I have been and will continue to wait for
the 442v2.  PLEASE DO NOT EVER THINK OF NOT CARRYING THIS PRODUCT TO
FRUITION!!!  I will weep blood.  There is nothing that I have seen
approaching the plans for the 442v2 either built or planned at any
price."
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 10:45:15 am by greyback » Logged

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ghavenga
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2006, 03:58:47 am »

I voted we'll see when it comes out - and here's my reasoning.

From the hardware side, the Archos 404/604 are what I would consider "state of the art".   The industrial design is spot on, the feature set includes a docking connector, plus all the other stuff one would want, and from what I've been able to discern, the price is right.

Only one thing's missing.  The software it comes with isn't open source.  The hardware specs have to be derived by dissection and reverse engineering.  I'm too busy inventing new stuff and and too overworked trying to reverse engineer our own legacy products to have to do that for a "toy".  I just want to be able to change the things that annoy me - or add functionality I think should be in there in the first place.

That's why the 442v2 is so intruiging.  A device, that at the outset was designed to be hacked / tweaked / modded.  A device who's innards are not a mystery - so that one can get right down to business customizing and extending it.

For this to be useful to me, I have to have a high level of functionality at the outset.  If I have a device that's way behind the curve, is not really functional, or doesn't support the basics (hw AND sw), then it's too "green" for me.  I'm sure I could do a bang-up job of doing the heavy development if so tasked, but with three kids, cub scouts, our school's "dads' project" program, and a boss that demands at least 45-50+ hrs / wk, I just don't have time for that.

I also don't intend on spending $3K+ for a development environment for a $3-400 toy - and I don't have time to figure out how to put one together out of umpteen packages.   If you have to do the development on Linux, that's ok, it's just there needs to be a modded Ubuntu/Debian/Distro du Jour that can run from DVD, preferably with a base "project" that can be copied to disk somewhere and updated via SVN or CVS.  That's the other piece of the puzzle that has to be in place before I can spend any time advancing the platform.   Having everything poised for development is important as every moment spent dinking around getting going is a moment not spent on something truly useful.

The audiophile specs are interesting to me, having worked on high end audio gear, but since I couldn't understand why the people that bought our stuff would spend north of $5K per boxed component for specs they were unlikely to be able to hear, that's a nice to have, but not necessary.

So, that's what I wish for in 442v2 land.  Fortunately for Neuros Tech, I'm not in any hurry to replace my stolen N1 - as I use (and love) my Open Source equiped Openfi+Omnifi in the car, and my PDA is doing an sucky but passable  job of handling my PMP chores.  Otherwise, I'd probably be looking seriously at the aforementioned Archos units.  The ideal unit would be a PMP/PDA/Phone, but since I don't trust cellular carriers further than I can throw them, and I dont' see things changing in my lifetime, I'm not holding my breath.

I know that my requirements are not trivial to accomplish - but fortunately, many of them only need to be done once (like the dev env on DVD).  I was hoping the 442v2 would be higher up the food chain in priority, but as it turns out, the timing (so far) is good for me - but at the same time,  I wonder if it's ok for the market.

So, Neuros Technology, I'm primed and waiting to be a supporter - and, in principle I am already - but if the package is there, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 04:09:32 am by ghavenga(at)riverview.net » Logged
Lou Erickson
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2006, 01:03:38 pm »


Personally, I don't have that much interest in video.  It's rare for me to watch anything on TV, and I don't have a bunch of the other accessories that go with a device like this.

I do have some video I'm trying to get digitized for long-term storage, but it's not stuff I always need to carry around.  (I'm actually more interested in the OSD, although my personal preferences may take me in a different direction.)

I would consider the 442v2 if it would be a complete replacement for the N2 or N3.  The ability to have and show some video would be nice, and I'd pay the extra for the device IF it did all the audio things I want it to.  That's primarily Neuroscast and Ogg Vorbis support.  (I used those two things this very day on my trusty N2.)

I keep seeing the N3 as a cheaper 442v2, which simply does not have the video capability.  If that is literally the case, I'd consider the 442v2 instead of the N3; Video'd be all right, but not at the sacrifice of the audio tools I need.  If the 442v2 does not include Ogg or Neuroscast, it won't meet my needs.

So, I'm not terribly interested, but the gadget freak in me could be convinced.  Smiley
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JEFFH
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2006, 06:43:28 am »

I  really liked the Idea of the 442 as a gadget and did get some limited use out of the current version.
I went into the gamma test experiment on Sept 6,2005 with  a strong belief in what Neuros was doing and lot of high hopes for the 442v2.
After over a year of waiting and no device even close to being ready im very wary at this point.
Maybe Neuros lacks Focus or  resources I don't know but one thing is certin they are just too slow to market with their promised  products.
ARCHOS already has a complete line of outstanding PMP/PMR that they support with firmware upgrades. The only thing is it s not open source. Then again open source is a nice idea but not the really important thing to to me.
What I want is a high quality fully functional polished device that does what its designed and advertised to do.
A good company that listens to its customers and then makes changes to the firmware to improve the product operation and function.
I feel a quality build fully functional OSD is Neuros best bet at this point but Sandisk is getting ready to launch a OSD type device and threatens to beat Neuros to the punch even on this.

That brings to mind a big question I have in general.
Using the open source community to develope the product and software may save Neuros money but what is to stop competiors with more resources from stealing your ideas and design and moving to market sooner?
A smarter play I feel would be for Neuros to spend the resources to design and develop the product in house and then after initial release make the code they developed available to the community for firmware upgrades and improvements.
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kcmark
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2006, 11:10:31 am »

First, let me say that the idea of a 442v2 is a great one!  Despite someone's earlier post that they don't watch video, there is a HUGE market for video (just look at the rise of Youtube as an example) and most people would watch it in this format.  Unfortunately, it is an idea that most of us expected to exist in reality more than 6 months ago.  Instead, it is a concept that has appeared to languish amidst a lack of focus from Neuros on what it wants to deliver to the public.  This thread is illustrative of that ever-changing sense of "what do we want to do."  It is good to be responsive and try to meet the perceived needs of the buying public, but it seems to me that you have to do your research and then make a decision to move forward to meet the needs of what the research has shown.

I agree with JeffH's comments that Neuros needed to develop their open source product in-house and then release a finished product with open source code.  Neuros' desire to develop its products from the outset in the open source community, while noble, does not seem to be a good business model for high-priced hardware.  Open source development works extremely well for free (or cheap) software that supports existing hardware but trying to involve the OS community in the development of the hardware from the beginning is akin to trying to herd cats or staple jello to  a wall.  There needs to be more focus and that does not exist in that type of environment where there is little accountability and people are working on the product in their "spare time."  Absent a paradigm shift in how the development of products occurs at Neuros, I do not forsee there being the kind of focus that is necessary to succeed in this market.  Perhaps, Neuros will prove me a wrong (let's hope so), but what products have been released since Neuros moved away from in-house development to this wholly collaborative approach?  Any?  It's a great idea in theory but in this fast-paced industry it appears to be too slow of a process to be successful.

Now, if the 442 was a fully functioning device right now -- (i.e. -- Analog recorder coupled with the features, functionality and reliability of the Creative Zen Vision W) it would sell like hotcakes.   I can already see the guys at PCMag and CNET salivating for such a device.  Clearly, the 442 was hampered by poor hardware design and terrible, buggy software.  As a gamma tester, my fear is that someone else will come out with the equivalent of a working 442 while we sit here and wait forever for the 442v2 to be released. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 11:14:20 am by kcmark » Logged
Gunderstorm
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2006, 05:48:44 pm »

Twelve voters?!?

No wonder the 442v2 issues aren't getting addressed!

Do you suppose that there are Gamma testers out there that don't even read these forums anymore?
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Ex-Navy
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2006, 07:59:15 pm »

Short and simple - build a fully functional 442V2, linux based, slick design, let users either upload custom apps
developed by others, or designed on their own.
Sell them the slick hardware that is at the forefront, cool apps and let them take it from there. Give them something
to talk about.


Take a look at the Nokia 770 and Maemo.org, a web template, considered by many as ugly and slow, linux based,
but many many buyers happy with its open source philosophy.

On another note:

Too many places to search for information.
When we do have time to contribute, I find I could spend hours just trying to navigate around Neuros forums, wikis,
blogs, bugzillas, google groups just to find out where one can get the newest information or even where to post it.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 05:55:58 am by Ex-Navy » Logged

Ex-Navy
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2006, 06:05:30 pm »


Too many places to search for information.
When we do have time to contribute, I find I could spend hours just trying to navigate around Neuros forums, wikis,
blogs, bugzillas, google groups just to find out where one can get the newest information or even where to post it.


Amen.  Way too much time wasted on redundant communication mediums and not enough time on actual product development.

There were a lot more Gamma testers that used to frequent these forums but Neuros is notoriously slow to respond to any inquiries posted here that most no longer bother.
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raider73
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2006, 01:29:36 am »

Neuros is lagging behind so much that I think the 442V2 is already washed up.  What the PMP community really wants is player that supports H.264 or .rmvb as well the regular Divx/Xvid files.  If Neuros had decided on that w/ the open source idea, they could take the whole market share but alas they lag and lag and lie about when the V2 will come out and when it does, it will be obsolete.
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jscott1
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2006, 07:07:21 pm »

I doubt at this point the 442V2 will ever come to the market.  I gave up reading these forums for information as there is very little info here anymore. 

The only reason I came back is to get information on where to send my broken 442V1 back to get fixed.  Maybe I can squeeze a little more use out of it before I buy an Archos to fill my video needs.   
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rastyk
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2006, 10:51:27 am »

I just wish the 442v1 would have had bookmarking and the ability to see more of the filename.    I bought the 442 because I love Linux and the open source concept, but we never really got there.

I don't even know what the v2 is about anymore after all of this time, I hope it has these two features though.

I do have to say that they are getting somewhere with the OSD though.  They're focused on doing that.  I hope soon after this, we get the v2.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 01:46:25 pm by rastyk » Logged
ice.skillz
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2006, 03:42:54 am »

Long time since I've been here.
Very interesting, but maybe it is the case of too little too late?

The 442v1 is obsolete. I mean there is very little support going on, not many (if at all) updates and compared to other PMP's and Audio/Video Players, it lacks a lot of features. There is more competition for the 442v2 to compete with now compared to the time when the v1 was released. Neuros will have to compete with Archos (the 604 is looking mighty well right now), Ipod, Zune, and so forth which all have audio/video capabilities. It may be hard for the 442 to shine it's light. Perhaps Neuros will prove me wrong. In order for the v2 to become successful it has to come out with a boom, it must have all (or most) of the features of the competitors and offer something to make people buy it. Maybe advertising, people only recognize the name Neuros is because of the success of the Recorder 2.  How will the v2 compete with that, along with having the failure of v1 on its back.

The design needs to be sleeker, thinner perhaps? My experience with the 442v1 is bittersweet. It is not the ideal audio and photo viewer, these aspects of the device can be greatly improved. It has a pretty good video codecs, and I can hook it up to my tele', record, without any other things required. But in the overall of the 442v1, I am dissatisfied. I was suspecting the v2 would be finished by this time (as promised), however, I was wrong. And now I'm here with this. I only bought this because I felt Neuros had potential. I also doubt the 442v2 will come to the market if Neuros doesn't step up its game.

The idea of the 442v2 is grand and excellent, the possibilities are endless! But, perhaps it is too late, because the 442v2 seems already behind with its hardware and software.  If Neuros is able to give us up to date hardware that is similar if not better than it competitors, and Open Source then and only then I will have hope for the 442v2.

I agree with Ex-navy on this point: "Too many places to search for information.
When we do have time to contribute, I find I could spend hours just trying to navigate around Neuros forums, wikis,
blogs, bugzillas, google groups just to find out where one can get the newest information or even where to post it. "

It is too hard to find the current information. I think that is why most Gamma testers don't even bother.
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PeregrineBF
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2006, 07:57:17 am »

I love the concept. But the nonexistent execution screws it. I'm not that interested in recording. There's the OSD for that if I wanted it. I just want good video/audio/picture playback, in a nice durable device with a big screen. The 442 has so-so video/picture abilities, and I can't figure out how to get it to play all songs on shuffle, so crappy audio.
The 442 V2 should be at least as capable an audio player as the neuros 2.
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budwzr
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2007, 03:08:17 pm »

As the proud new owner of an Archos 604 wifi, I can say that the bar may be a little too high for you guys. The clunky, and frustrating, user interface in the R2+ has relegated the unit to doing simple grunt work.

The top of my entertainment center is now crowned with the 604 wifi dock, and the R2+ lives in its box until I need to record a DVD or camcorder transfer.

The lesson I learned is do your homework and see what's out there and compare specs FIRST, before you invest. When I discovered the 604 wifi, I even gave away my Zen Vision M to a family member.

Please check out the 604 wifi before commiting to anything, because Archos is on a fast track, and quite possibly an iPod & Zune killer for the baby-boomers like me that appreciate a larger very high quality screen, and we're willing to pay more for something really good.

Sure, there are the loyalists here that will tell you what you want to hear, but you should seriously take a look at your competitors. The 604 wifi user interface is VERY friendly and loaded with bells and whistles.

Bud

P.S. Since the Archos product supports Macrovision and will not play recorded DVD's on the "tv out" port, the R2+ has become a handy way of recording DVD's in realtime without them getting infected with DRM. So I'm glad to have purchased it even with the clunky interface. You guys did OK on that one.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 07:25:25 pm by budwzr » Logged
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